Also see: An Expansion on the Four Levels of Insight into Emptiness

Thusness had a casual discussion with me regarding the various phases of seeing through intrinsic-ness in experience:

Realizing the nature (i.e. non-arising, empty nature) of clarity is not the same as realizing clarity. Anatta can lead one to experience whatever arises/appearance as presence.

Presence is part of the journey. The practitioner goes through anatta and realizes what we called presence is just appearance. Then he must start
looking at absence. There are at least 4 levels of seeing through intrinsic-ness or the realizing of absence and anatta is just the beginning.

1. The emptiness (i.e. non-existence of a) background

2. Seeing foreground appearance as empty like mist or shimmering paint in
the pond but appearance is seen as arising, abiding and ceasing.

3. Seeing absence in vivid presence... means in clear vivid non-dual
appearance, realize it is never there at all. At this phase, there must
be complete conviction without the slightest doubt from logical
analysis in understanding why it is "never there". The article where I
asked you what is second fold... non-Arisen emptiness. (link: https://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.sg/2013/04/daniel-post-on-anattaemptiness.html)

4. Turn insight of non-arisen in 3 into a taste, otherwise the 2 mindstreams cannot become one... that is, mind stream of dependent arising and emptiness are like what Tsongkhapa said "mutually exclusive", no way to become one unless one reaches Buddhahood. This is because we do not know the key is in recognizing the taste of absence (i.e translate the logical and inferring consciousness into a taste).

...

It is fully and vividly present and in the midst of this clear presence/appearance, it is realized as absence. That is why there is no arising, abiding and ceasing - non-arisen.

When you hear music and just music, there is no hearer... no hearer is anatta (lvl 1), the beautiful music in clean transparency is non-dual appearance... when absence is seen only when music disappears like a disappearing mist then it is phase 2. If it is clearly heard in non-dual mode and simultaneously realized to be absence (without the music disappearing) then it is phase 3. Then entire being will be pervaded with deep sense of illusion-like spaciousness.

But all these are just -A. Next is to look at +A. It is exactly the same again but this round non-conceptual appearance and dependent arising is brought to be seen and understood at the conventional level.

So it is understanding the nature of experience...not just directly experiencing awareness.
After this practice is no practice... just complete non-dual releasing... natural and spontaneous. When essencelessness is thoroughly seen through, the way of practice can only be spontaneous presence and natural perfection. Essence/inherent is what that prevents one from being natural and spontaneous. But don't link it to Dzogchen... all these about spontaneous presence and natural perfection is simply thoroughness of knowing the habit and many faces of inherent tendencies... may be completely different from Dzogchen spontaneous presence.

So do you know why it must be in a state of non-dual presence...?

"Then at this moment of appreciating maha suchness of the breath, the sensations, the entire scenery, the entire world…

Understand that they are Empty!

Experience the magnificence then deeply understand that they are empty but this Emptiness has nothing to do with deconstruction nor reification nor do I mean they are simply impermanent. So what is this Emptiness I am referring to?"

It must be vividly present with all magnificence... why? Because if it is gone then it is not the phase 3 absence.

Soh:

Earlier today I discussed with Thusness... I'm writing based on the discussion.

When we think of a label or a designation, it is dead, fixed and static... how is this designation made "alive"?

Seeing "things as they are" is not seeing non-conceptually without adding and subtracting anything from isness.. rather it is seeing impermanence, dependent arising and non-arising of phenomena so that mind can be released from grasping. So how is consciousness-nama-rupa understood to see its dependent arising and non-arising in conventionality? How should designation be understood in a thoroughly fluid, inseparable, dependent arising and non-arisen way?

There is a term in Gelug Prasangika by Tsongkhapa, it is termed
"appropriation"... it is closely related to total exertion. Also to
understand deeply, apply the insight of "a dream in a dream" where
symbols and appearances are fully enacted as one, neither same nor
different.

See through first how reifications arise and the deconstruction of these reifications in direct experience (anatta and 2 folds) and then how to correctly apply conventionality as a semblance to "what is".

19 hrs · Edited · Like · 4

John Ahn: Soh

    I wondered about this as well. There is a point in practice where the designations indeed do come alive (I'm not sure if Thusness means the same thing). There is a natural flow and interaction between the conventionality and direct non conceptual experience of passing sound. It's an emergence of a very flexible intelligence. One no longer holds a view of "how the world is." Labels arise in accordance with convenience and functionality and they are experienced with the same taste as the passing senses.

    Just as conventions, memories, projection, etc are seen as labels arising dependent on direct experience, previous knowledge, language, situation, etc. there is no difference in the nature of their arising than the direct feet-touch-ground. The direct feet-touch-ground is also no more "real" than the conventions either. The arising dependent on conditions has no more reality than the arising dependent on designations. The label "chair" is just as real and just as false as the experience of the form of "chair" dependent on eye and material causation. "What is" is effortless dependent arising, there is truly no other "what is."

    So how does reification arise...the main culprit IME is wrong view and identification. Both identification and reification are the same mistake of assuming inherent reality of a particular pattern of arising. For instance when we think that designations are more real than pure sensory data as most people do, we reify the mind. If we reify sensory data as more real than the designations that is what many physicalists do unknowingly.

    The moment we reify something as more real identification arises immediately. Even if we hold a certain view as more "real," identity hides behind the one holding that view, regardless whether that view is of selflessness or emptiness. So some people try to get rid of views, which is..unfortunately another view. A view must become experience that is authenticated in all moments, and that is the view of dependent arising.

    So which comes first..reification or identification..I'd say they are the same aspect: subject-action-object. A self perpetuating circle.
    11 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 3
    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland: A dead, fixed and static label or designation "comes alive" when... how to explain...

    Seeing impermanence, a through-and-through lack of 'staying'.

    Dependent arising means seeing the process of designation. It is *process* (dependent arising)—absence of substance (emptiness).

    Absence of substance means non-arising of phenomena. It means that whatever imputed is merely imputed—nothing real, not inherent.

    Seeing the inter-action and dependency between consciousness and nama-rupa demonstrates "live-ness"—meaning both "occurring right now, continually" and "dynamically expressive".

    That is the thoroughly fluid, inseparable, dependent, non-arisen nature.

    A dead, fixed and static label or designation "comes alive" when it is seen live—occurring right now, continually—that the designation is actualized or exerted by and through "a mesh/web/net of inter-relations/relativity": Air is air and nothing else, when it is experienced in relation to a breathing body.

    This vision has a sense of mere reflection, a hall of mirrors, like a kaleidoscope, clockwork, or a continually tilting holographic image. Nothing static is found, except, the essence is unmoved—like water poured into water: What alteration is there?
    4 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 1
    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland It is a live seeing that air is air because it is being breathed.

    The profundity of just that... the dependence of this on that.

    Of course, saying "air is air because it is being breathed" is a drastic simplification of what is actually seen, but it would be rather useless to go on about it. That simplified sentence gives the gist, but the vision is all-'round, all-inclusive, limitless, undivided.
    10 hrs · Edited · Unlike · 2
    Ej Alex Reminds me of this:
    "Breathing in, sky becomes breath. Breathing out, breath becomes sky."
    http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.de/2013/10/breathing.html
    Awakening to Reality: Breathing
    awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com
    10 hrs · Unlike · 4 · Remove Preview
    Stian Gudmundsen Høiland: WWZC (White Wind Zen Community) has to be one of the most authentic Buddhist communities around today.
    10 hrs · Edited · Like
    Soh: Thusness wrote:

    Both of what John Ahn: and Stian expressed r very insightful. They bring more "life" to the designations.

    Stian is expressing it very well. When Dogen rows the boat, the rowing makes the boat a boat and makes the hand, the sea, wooden oars and the movement of the boat into the "rowing". The designations turns "alive" yet r like mere reflections.

    Why is it like water pouring in water? Because one tastes the hand, the sea, the wooden oars going beyond their designated boundaries into one seamless (like pour water in water) action of rowing. There is no self, only that action of rowing.

    With anatta and dependent arising, u will feel immense inter-relatedness yet empty like reflections even in the world of conceptualities.

    The father is dependent on the son and the son makes the father a father. Don't just look at the logic, see how much emotions and love are invested in them. There are no "things" and "world" other than that.

    So not just what that is direct, clean, brilliance, non-dual, non-conceptual and transparent is empty like space; u must re-enter the world, dirty ur hands and see conventionalities with this new found insights of selflessness and DO...see the whole chain of arisings...so intricate yet empty like reflections.

Dependent Designation is a key teaching of Madhyamika:

"Whatever is dependently co-arisen
That is explained to be emptiness.
That, being a dependent designation
Is itself the middle way.
Something that is not dependently arisen,
Such a thing does not exist.
Therefore a non-empty thing
Does not exist. " 

-- Nagarjuna



..........

Wrote more: 21/12/2014:Water pouring into water may be understood as mere non-division of subject and object, in fact you hear descriptions of how the realization of Atman-Brahman is like pouring a drop of water into the great ocean, and so on.

However, the water pouring into water in Madhyamika has a more subtle meaning. The subject and object, realization and object of realization, etc etc is released like water pouring into water. This means seeing the selflessness, the emptiness of self and object, screen and images, plane and flying, car/driver/driving, etc etc leads to the taste of empty and non-dual seamless exertion.

For example now you no longer see yourself as an independent driver existing independent of the driving (driver is dependently designated in dependence of driving and car), driving a car which is mistakenly seen to exist independent of the driver and driving. Neither are you saying the driver collapses into the car or the car collapses into the driver. Rather, by seeing how driver, car and driving are dependent and empty, then car, driver, driving, environment 'melts' into empty, non-dual seamless exertion. Your riding makes the boat what it is.

In this case, subject and object are non-dual like Advaita but not really the same in view, because you are not collapsing one pole to another but releasing them into non-obstruction.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/adrqp1/what_does_nagarjuna_mean_when_he_says_causes/

level 1

 http://www.jackkornfield.com/karma-habit/

Karma & Habit

By jackkornfield, September 4, 2014

In the ancient texts, karma is written as a compound word, karma-vipaka. Karma-vipaka means “action and result,” or what we call cause and effect. This is not a philosophical concept. It is a psychological description of how our experience unfold every day.

A good way to begin to understand karma is by observing our habit patterns. When we look at habit and conditioning, we can sense how our brain and consciousness create repeated patterns. If we practice tennis enough, we will anticipate our next hit as soon as the ball leaves the other player’s racquet. If we practice being angry, the slightest insult will trigger our rage. These patterns are like a rewritable CD. When they are burned in repeatedly, the pattern becomes the regular response. Modern neuroscience has demonstrated this quite convincingly. Our repeated patterns of thought and action actually change our nervous system. Each time we focus our attention and follow our intentions, our nerves fire, synapses connect, and those neural patterns are strengthened. The neurons literally grow along that direction.

Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh describes the karmic process of conditioning with another metaphor: the image of planting seeds in consciousness. The seeds we plant contain the potential to grow when conditions support them. The seed of a magnolia or a redwood tree contains the whole life pattern of the plant, which will respond when suitable conditions of water, earth, and sunlight arise. A Chinese Buddhist text describes these seeds: “From intention springs the deed, from the deed springs the habits. From the habits grow the character, from character develops destiny.”

What we practice becomes habit. What may at one time be beneficial can later become a form of imprisonment. Andrew Carnegie was asked by a reporter about the gathering of riches, “You could have stopped at any time, couldn’t you, because you always had much more than you needed.” “Yes, that’s right,” Carnegie answered, “but I couldn’t stop. I had forgotten how to.” Habits have a collective nature as well as an individual one. When King George II heard the “Hallelujah Chorus” in the first performance of Handel’s Messiah, he was so moved that, against all form, he stood up. Of course, when the king stands, everyone else must stand as well. Since that day, no matter how the performance is done, the whole audience stands. While this is a harmless convention, societies can equally repeat destructive habits of racism, hatred, and revenge.

We can work with habits. Through the mindful process of RAIN, we can rewire our nervous system. The genesis of this transformation is our intention. Buddhist psychology explains that before every act there is an intention, though often the intention is unconscious. We can use recognition, acceptance, investigation of suffering, and non-identification to create new karma. Through mindfulness and non-identification, we can choose a new intention. We can do this moment by moment, and we can also set long-term intentions to transform our life.

Setting a conscious intention was important for Tamara, a woman who ran a community food bank. She had come to meditation to bring balance into her life. But when she first sat quietly and tried to sense her breath, panic arose. She struggled as if she couldn’t get enough air. I had her relax and shift her attention from her breath to her whole body for a time. Later when she went back to her breath, the panic arose again. Staying curious, she actually remember the woozy feeling of ether. She flashed back to stories of her birth. Tamara had been born blue from lack of oxygen and her mother told her it took a long time before the doctor could get her to breathe. In meditation Tamara learned that she couldn’t control the breath of the feelings of panic, but she could set an intention to be present with kindness and then let go. Setting a positive intention changed her meditation for the better.

Then in 2005, Tamara went down to Louisiana for two months to help with food distribution for the survivors of Hurrican Katrina. She discovered that she needed the same focused intentions she had developed in meditation. She met people who were in the grip of the same kind of panic she had discovered within herself. They were frightened, angry, stressed out, trying to stay alive. Often the people in charge were in equally difficult states of overwhelm and shock. Tamara soon realized she couldn’t control the people or situation any more than she could control her own breath. At time she became reactive, and when this happened she would breathe, set an intention to be present with goodwill, then let go. Repeatedly setting a kind intention got her through the two months without being terrified or burned out.

This excerpt is taken from the book, “The Wise Heart: A Guide to the Universal Teachings of Buddhist Psychology”

Taken from Dharma Conection

John Ahn:

Yes, there is no entity. But that is only half of the equation. One has to understand that there is also no contact. To me this is the distinction in the two phrases of anatta. Although we understand that in seeing there is no seer, it may not be as clear that in seeing, only the seen. So it's understood that there is really never any such thing as contact. No meetings ever take place. The experience of the human condition is revealed to be merely a series of impressions: sounds, colors, tactile sensations, smells, tastes, and symbols (meanings and conventionalities).

Impressions have no reality to them, they arise with conditions and disappear with conditions. We have to see this as impressions and not through dualistic cognition. Its impressions seeing impressions liberating impressions.

I do not have full experience with undirection. But so far in my path, the undirection comes when there is total unbinding at the deepest layers of habit, especially at the level of sensations which constitute embodiment. It's a mistake to somehow seek out undirection, because it is the ending of action. If one is still inclined to a state of decisions, actions, and effort, then thinking one is in a spontaneous state is a huge deception. Much practice is needed to undo the habitual patterning of embodied energy, which will continually create sense of physicality and relationships. If you are in a state of relationships, of this, that, here, now, etc then there will always be a a direction. To believe otherwise is, in my opinion, deceiving oneself.

Hence, sadhana.

...

Yes, but there is an element you are missing imo. The second phrase of the anatta insight is to see the dimensionless stand alone texture of awareness as sights, sound, taste, smell, touch, and concept. The self has to be deconstructed by seeing that there is merely manifestation, otherwise there is always a reference to a separateness. Whether it is watcher, I am, void, samadhi, or any other experience seen as more true than the flowing appearance.

...

And yes, there is no such thing as sense base and sense data in direct experience. Its all just arising and ceasing according to conditions.

If we don't apply the principle of dependent origination, we fall in "that-ness" which is how subject hides in object. In reinforcing no-self, the self hides in the effort and objectification, believing that there is no longer any engagement, but just "that." This is a subtle mistake because you can't just get rid of me from "me and that." Me and that are co arising. When the trifold structure of "me, that, and, me and that (action + contact)" dissolve upon insight, there is a very different experience of the sense spheres in that they begin to lose dimension.

They have to form, abiding, boundary, size, duration, etc. It is merely arising then gone like rainbows appear when there is light and water. The entire human experience is the arising and disappearing of such impressions as the 6 tastes. Anyway, that's just my experience and analysis.

...

In experience there is really no such thing as internal or external. That is just conventional framework of mind. You never experience anything internally or externally. There are only impressions of the sense spheres. Which at first is unbelievable because the framework of locality, individuality, and embodiment is so strong.

The teachings of how sense spheres arise dependently upon contact are to point to their emptiness which as an effect liberates one from the inherent view. This teaching really doesn't seem that important at first. Like, "hey, ok, so what? It's obvious stuff happens causally upon interaction..so why is there all this emphasis on dependent arising?"

But it takes a different effect when contemplated from the perspective of nondual experience and seeing the cause of how duality arises, namely through the view of inherence. The clear nondual visual field is experienced (as pointed out by Goran's post above) but it is not liberated into its empty nature. So contemplating its dependent arising is important here.